Litigators and clients find it difficult to collect cell phone and social media evidence. Peter and Natalie speak with Puneet Tiwari about his new tool that will help you search and collect evidence. This way, you won’t miss the important evidence to support your case.
Puneet Tiwari grew up in Ottawa, Ontario and now is a practicing lawyer in Toronto. Puneet has always had a keen interest in how technology and the law interact, and how they can help each other. Puneet received his Bachelor’s in Political Science at Carleton University and his Law Degree from Western Michigan University.
Peter Aprile is a senior lawyer specializing in tax dispute resolution and litigation. His vision as Counter’s founder and his everyday role at the firm are one and the same: to be an agent of change, uncovering opportunities and developing strategies that achieve more than anyone expected. A creative thinker, Peter studies problems from all different angles to find what others have missed. He’s also convinced that he likes winning more than most people.
Different people describe Peter in different ways. At the CRA and the federal Department of Justice, the word relentless comes up quite a lot. Admittedly, so does the word a**hole – but it’s often said with a certain grudging respect, if not affection. Peter’s clients call him a saint. Well, some of them, anyway. His colleagues describe him as empowering and harddriving, but fair. Peter’s friends call him loyal. His wife describes him as a lot to deal with, but worth it. Peter encourages his young daughter and son to call him “The Big Homie,” though with limited success. His mother describes him with the single word mischievous – before going on to complain that he should call more.
Natalie is a tax lawyer who represents individual taxpayers and owner-managed businesses in disputes with the Canada Revenue Agency (CRA). She also successfully challenges CRA decisions denying taxpayer relief and helps facilitate applications under the Voluntary Disclosures Program.
But what you really need to know about Natalie is that she’s a tax litigator with heart. When she takes a case, it’s not out of technical interest – it’s because she cares. And if she believes the government has got something wrong, she won’t stop until it’s been put right. She’s fierce.
Natalie is the co-architect behind many of Counter’s process workflows, software and data analytics systems, as well as our comprehensive knowledgebase (loving named Hank). And when it comes to preparing cases, she’s Counter’s secret weapon – happiest when elbow-deep in evidence, meticulously building creative solutions to seemingly impossible problems. Because the fact is Natalie sees things that other people don’t.
Natalie’s family and friends describe her as loyal, selfless, understanding and fun. They also mention stubborn. To her Counter colleagues she’s a combination of stellar brainpower and contagious enthusiasm who elevates the game of everyone around her.
Tech, Tools & More
[00:00] [background music]
Peter Aprile: [00:08] Hi and welcome to "Building NewLaw," Canada's first and only CPD credit podcast. It's hosted by me Peter Aprile and my colleague Natalie Worsfold.
Natalie Worsfold: [00:16] In each episode, we interview lawyers, legal technologist, and other like‑minded people at the forefront of NewLaw.
Peter: [00:15] We hope that the podcast connects NewLaw community and helps us all learn more about the approaches that are changing the way that we practice law.
Natalie: [00:33] To learn how you can use this podcast to satisfy your law society CPD requirements, visit our website at countertax.ca/bnlcpd. It's countertax.ca/bnlcpd.
Peter: [00:40] Enjoy the show. The Building NewLaw podcast is supported by Counter Tax Lawyers, a new type of tax controversy and litigation law firm. To learn more about Counter, go to countertax.ca
Natalie: [01:00] Today, we're speaking with Puneet Tiwari. Puneet founded a company called Evichat, which is an e‑Discovery tool that helps lawyers gather and preserve mobile based evidence. So things like text messages, information from WhatsApp, Facebook, and other social media accounts and websites.
Peter: [01:21] Evichat is really taking off in Toronto and Puneet is out selling his products to lawyers across North America, and we thought it would be interesting to hear Puneet's experience with moving from being a lawyer to selling products to lawyers.
[01:31] We often hear that selling Tech to lawyers is tough and we want to test some of those assumptions and look what was driving Puneet's experience.
Natalie: [01:38] Mostly, I think I just wanted an excuse to learn more about Puneet. He's always smiling. He has a natural ability to connect with people and he's just lovely to be around.
Peter: [01:46] Yeah, Puneet's like the nicest guy in legal tech I think and here's our interview with Puneet.
Natalie: [01:51] Hi Puneet, thank you for taking the time to join us today. How about you start off by telling us a little bit about yourself and about Evichat?
[02:05] Puneet Tiwari : My name is Puneet Tiwari, I'm CEO and Co‑Founder of Evichat and we help lawyers collect evidence from their client's mobile devices and Internet cloud accounts.
Natalie: [02:13] So when you say help collect, tell me exactly what you mean? Just give me an idea or paint me a picture of what your software does?
Puneet: [02:19] Currently when a client needs to get, let's say a text message conversation into evidence, they take screenshots on their phone and send it to their lawyer. This can easily be faked. It's very cumbersome and takes a long time, and of course, it takes even longer to review, you can't search through them.
[02:37] So, we built software where a client can download it on their phone, simply select the contact and text message thread they want to get to their legal counsel, and hit "Send."
[02:47] We pull all of the text messages for that particular thread directly from the phone's database, including all of the metadata, so the lawyer can then search through it, make reductions, and then export it wherever it needs to go.
Natalie: [02:58] It sounds like you're solving a couple of different problems. One seems to be the collection side of it, and the other is verification and authenticity. Things like that.
Puneet: [03:08] That's exactly right. There's a bit of a third problem, too. We help lawyers find that smoking gun through a text message evidence. A lot of times, clients will cherry‑pick what they want to send to their lawyer in terms of screenshots. This allows the lawyer to get the full picture and even submit the full picture to a judge in a nice transcript format, easy to read.
Natalie: [03:29] How did you come across these problems?
Puneet: [03:32] Good question. I was facing the same problem myself. I practiced law at a small firm in the West End of Toronto, Kesarwani Law Office. The firm did a lot of family law. I did a lot of employment law while I was there.
[03:45] I found almost every single one of my clients had text message evidence they wanted to send me. Whether it's WhatsApp, text messages, or emails. They're just taking screenshots. Sending me an email with 30 screenshots attached.
Natalie: [03:57] [laughs]
Puneet: [03:54] It was a huge nightmare. I tried to find a solution for myself to buy and use. I couldn't find something affordable. I got together with my co‑founder, and he said, "Hey, I could build this." Here we are.
Natalie: [04:11] Were you surprised that there wasn't anything, there wasn't a solution? Especially an affordable one, like you mentioned.
Puneet: [04:18] I wasn't too surprised because this was pretty early in my legal career. I found there wasn't that much legal software out there. Who was more surprised was my co‑founder.
Natalie: [04:30] [laughter]
Puneet: [04:30] Nilesh started doing some research, and he said, "You're right. I really can't find anything, and I can't believe it. How is this not invented yet?"
[04:37] We found there's a lot of things not invented yet for lawyers.
Natalie: [04:39] Yeah. I think that might be an understatement. One of the things that surprise me is discoveries always seem to be one of the first areas that embrace tech. There are so many e‑discovery products. The fact that there wasn't anything specific to mobile devices really threw me.
[04:56] It just seemed almost like that area, I'd expect them to have kept up. As the data source changed, I would have expected discovery tools to keep up. Have you seen anyone else jump into the same space?
Puneet: [05:08] As of recently, there are a couple players that are coming in. This is mainly a new problem. Even five years ago, text messages were more considered like a niche area. Now, I would say anything important that you're talking about is over text message.
Natalie: [05:25] And I dread to think what you guys are digging up because...
Puneet: [05:27] [laughs]
Natalie: [05:27] I imagine people are a lot more willing to write things they probably shouldn't in their text messages. [laughs]
Puneet: [05:33] Absolutely. Especially lawyers when they want to take something offline, they text each other.
Natalie: [05:39] [laughs]
Peter: [05:39] Not so smart.
Puneet: [05:40] Yeah, yeah. It turns out everybody does that. [laughs]
Peter: [05:44] I don't. Don't write it down if you don't want it to appear anywhere.
Puneet: [05:49] Exactly. Someone will find it.
Natalie: [05:50] So, tell us a little bit about your team.
Puneet: [05:52] The founding team is myself and my co‑founder, who's also my cousin and CTO, Nilesh Pandey. He's a Waterloo trained engineer. He's had lots of startup experience, and he's the brains behind the technology, the architect. And then actually, we've used co‑ops from the University of Waterloo...
Natalie: [06:11] Nice.
Puneet: [06:11] and the University of Toronto to build our entire software.
Natalie: [06:14] That's fantastic.
Peter: [06:15] So, what's your role in the company?
Puneet: [06:17] So, I'm co‑founder and CEO. I'm the guy who goes to all the podcasts and...
Puneet: [06:23] sales, customer service, admin. Accountant/lawyer.
Peter: [06:28] Everything else.
Puneet: [06:29] That's right.
Natalie: [06:30] And are you out looking for funding or is this something you guys are doing through family and friends?
Puneet: [06:36] So, we initially bootstrapped and got family and friends funding. And we've stretched that this entire way. And it worked out pretty well for us. We are always looking at or thinking about, "Oh, should we raise around?" Those are internal discussions that we are having. And we'll see what happens with that over the next year.
Peter: [06:55] How was it raising money from friends and family?
Puneet: [06:57] [laughs] That's a good question. I think it's harder for the people raising the money than the people giving it a lot of the time. This is an idea we had. We built a prototype, got some early traction. We really believe in it.
[07:14] But when your friends and family are willing to put up their hard‑earned cash and take a huge risk on you, it's a lot of pressure. There's so much at stake, not to mention relationships. So, that is very daunting for the founders. Just raising any kind of money is hard, and this goes along with that.
[07:30] But it was definitely, "These are our friends and family. We got to prove them right. We got to do them right, and let's work hard and get this done."
Peter: [07:37] And it's you and your cousin. So, it's like the entire family.
Puneet: [07:39] Absolutely. So, a lot of people are very involved. [laughs]
Peter: [07:45] Family picnics would have been really awkward if things went a different way.
Puneet: [07:50] For sure.
Natalie: [07:51] And it's been just a wonderful story of growth. You've got paying customers, recurring revenue and everything already, right?
Puneet: [07:58] That's right. Our strategies changed a little bit in 2018. In January, when we had our first handful of clients, we were going exclusively after the really big firms. This works in the beginning. We got a few big name firms. We were really excited. Like, "This is it. It's happening so fast."
[08:18] And it turns out, it was just a coincidence. They had fires that needed to be put out immediately. And we happened to be in the right place at the right time, and it worked out. But over the next few months, there were long security audits we had to go through, and the sales cycle was much longer. So now we're focused on smaller firms.
Peter: [08:38] What was the reasoning behind targeting big firms initially? Tell us a little bit about the strategy or the thinking behind that.
Puneet: [08:46] It was like if one of the seven sisters jumps in the pool, they're all going to follow. And a lot of the lawyers we did talk to, the first thing we heard was, "Well, who else is using it?" And so we wanted to answer that question with a lot more confidence.
[09:02] And so that that was our target in the beginning.
Peter: [09:05] Very neat.
Natalie: [09:05] So, when you're out propositioning these larger firms, who are you dealing with? Who do you reach out to?
Puneet: [09:12] It really depends on the firm itself. So some firms, it's a litigation associate who might be facing this problem. And it's often younger associates who deal with it. Law clerks are doing the brunt of the work when it comes to text message collections.
[09:29] Or if there's an extremely tech savvy person at the law firm who's into innovation and legal tech, I'll reach out to them.
Natalie: [09:38] And in terms of building that awareness, are you out meeting people? Are you guys working more in terms of websites and an online presence? What strategy are you using?
Puneet: [09:50] All of the above. Recently, we went to New Orleans for the Clio Cloud Conference. We met a lot of people there. We've been to the ABA TECHSHOW in Chicago in the last couple of years. That's helped us meet a lot of people in the United States as well.
[10:03] Then there's blogs, there's tweets, there's LinkedIn ‑‑ I'm all over the place there. And the legal Innovation Zone here in Toronto, they have something they call industry night, for example, which was just last week, where they allow us to pitch to an invite only group of lawyers and then network with them as well afterwards. So all of the above.
Peter: [10:24] What else? Tell us about your relationship with the Legal Innovation Zone? What has that done for you guys?
Puneet: [10:30] Without them, there would be no Evichat. And actually, if you ask any of the startups who are based out of there, they'll say the same thing about their own company. They really nurtured us right from the beginning. When you have the former Attorney General, Chris Bentley, telling you, "Yeah, this is a great idea," it really gives you motivation to build it out.
[10:49] And guys like Hersh and Nafis at the Legal Innovation Zone really support the startups as much as they can. And we only have extremely positive things to say.
Peter: [10:58] So they provide you with office space there, yes?
Puneet: [11:00] Yep.
Peter: [11:00] And then tell me, what's the nuts and bolts? What else do they provide their startups with?
Puneet: [11:05] The office space is really important. It's at 10 Dundas East. It made attracting talent that much easier. We're at the DMZ, right where all the action is. Plus there's a lot of great places [laughs] to eat around.
Peter: [11:18] [laughs]
Puneet: [11:18] There's a mall. So our staff really, really likes the space. There's entrepreneurs and residents that come in that might help you out with sales strategies, marketing strategies, legal strategies, business strategy. Whatever you might need.
[11:35] There's an expert in that field who comes in with office hours that you can meet with and speak to. That's the brunt of it. Also, introductions to several different law firms. If you ever need an introduction, they'll be happy to make it, and reach into the Rolodex and find out how to get you in there.
Peter: [11:52] Cool.
Natalie: [11:53] I think we're seeing a lot more law firms and organizations have these incubators and get interested in fostering legal tech in some way. Do you think that's going to help in the long run to bring more tech into law?
Puneet: [12:05] Absolutely. A lot of different law firms, you're right, are getting some incubator or lab as they like to call it. And yeah, why not let someone play in the sandbox and see if they build something cool that lowers your costs or what have you?
[12:23] And that's worked for a lot of other big companies. It's smart that law firms are trying to do the same thing.
Natalie: [12:30] There's been some really interesting discussions floating around on Twitter recently about lawyers' role in technology and whether you need to have a lawyer on staff in order to have a successful legal tech company. What are your thoughts on that?
Puneet: [12:45] I'm going to say no. You just need to have good tech. The sales will just start happening. It does provide a bit of credibility, especially in the earlier days. But once you have a solution that's actually bringing value, saving them time or money or what have you, lawyers are going to buy it. They don't care who built it.
[13:06] No one asks us how many lawyers are on your team or where your engineers went to school. They just want to know that it works and where to put the credit card.
Natalie: [13:14] When you say credibility, do you mean in that sales cycle that you were talking about?
Puneet: [13:18] Absolutely. On my signature, it's Puneet Tiwari, JD. Just to give me that foot in the door. When it's a first contact, I think that definitely helps. For the lawyers that have heard about us beforehand and they're reaching out to us, it seems like they couldn't care less.
Natalie: [13:37] Tell us a little bit about what it's like selling to lawyers. We hear stories about it being quite difficult. What's been your experience?
Puneet: [13:44] It is quite difficult. It's really hard to find the secret sauce.
Puneet: [13:49] What works for most companies might not work for lawyers. For example, a lot of companies use what they call direct email marketing. But a lot of people call it spam.
Natalie: [14:01] [laughs]
Puneet: [14:02] And that's the secret sauce to a lot of startups. However, lawyers are more likely to report you that you're in breach of a castle or whatnot.
Puneet: [14:13] So, it's a little scarier.
Peter: [14:15] That's funny.
Puneet: [14:16] Cold calling does not really work with lawyers, or at least in my experience, it hasn't. You might be speaking with a lawyer over email, they, "Oh, yeah, this is interesting. Can you tell me about it," give them a call and they're like, "Don't ever call me again."
Puneet: [14:29] So, it's really bizarre but that's the stuff that happens.
Natalie: [14:32] So is it mostly relationship based, then?
Puneet: [14:34] Yes.
Natalie: [14:34] Like, you mentioned you're finding people through connections. Is that?
Puneet: [14:37] Relationship‑based selling to the lawyers, I think that really works. Several of the big firms that we sold, we didn't speak to a single lawyer there. We directly targeted the legal support staff, and they couldn't be more excited to get their hands on the software.
[14:53] So, I think you need to find who's feeling the pain inside the law firm and then that person will do the selling for you.
Peter: [15:01] But people in the trenches, like, it's not even they're head of knowledge management or something like that.
Puneet: [15:07] No. Those heads of knowledge management get probably hundreds of solicitations a day. Everyone with some kind of legal tech solution, finds their name on LinkedIn, send them a message or an email, and their inboxes are full. The clerks and the legal assistance and all the support staff, they're the ones who are doing this job.
[15:29] If you speak to a senior partner at a big litigation firm about text message evidence, they might say something like, "Well, no, I walk into my office and it's there on my desk. What do you mean?"
Peter: [15:41] Don't we already have technology for that? It seems like magic. [laughs]
Puneet: [15:44] Actually, I've been in a boardroom where I've started off the question, like, "What's your solution right now?" And law clerks been like, "Oh, we don't have one. This is so frustrating," and a partner across the tables be like, "What are you talking about? We have tons of technology solutions," and this and that, and then the law clerks don't speak for the rest of the meeting.
Peter: [16:05] [laughs]
Puneet: [16:05] And then I'll reach out to them offline.
Natalie: [16:08] And are you getting any pushback or have you seen anything when you're selling in terms of connecting improvements and efficiency and the billable hour, and things like that? Have you had any pushback in that sense?
Puneet: [16:19] No, not at all. You know what? That's a question potential investors always ask. "Oh, your lawyers are going to bill less. Isn't that going to be worse for them?" No lawyer has ever mentioned it. They've all been thinking, yes, we want to make this easier. We want to save time and save money.
[16:39] And to be competitive, that's what you have to do. You can't be the law firm that's charging more to do things an old‑school manual way that a lot of firms are just adopting technology to do.
Peter: [16:51] But to your point, you're saving the legal clerks time or the paralegals time, which isn't affecting the lawyers hourly rate anyway.
Puneet: [16:58] Absolutely. Not only that, this is often unbillable time. A law clerk won't be able to bill to the file just because clients don't want to see X amount of hours for preparing photocopies of text messages, which the client feels they actually did because they spent three weekends going over the past 10 years screenshotting all their texts.
Natalie: [17:21] [laughs] Do you know, are your clients dispersing the cost back to...?
Puneet: [17:25] Yes, 100 percent are.
Peter: [17:27] Hold on, it's SaaS, right?
Puneet: [17:30] Well, we have an interesting model, actually. So, it's $50 per case per file for our pay as you go pricing. So, each case that comes on, it's $50 per month that they have it on our servers. So, if it's a large file, it's on for several months, they can disperse that or if it's a smaller file, they get all the data, review it, export the transcript they need, and then purge it from our systems, we stop charging them.
Peter: [17:56] Sorry, so there's a monthly model as well as a pay‑as‑you‑go or pay‑as‑you‑use type model?
Puneet: [18:01] Yeah. That's the pay‑as‑you‑use type model which is fully dispersible. And for larger firms, we do have an enterprise level model which is hand‑holding custom build outs that they might need, 24/7 customer service live, more of the Bay Street firms are on that model.
Peter: [18:19] And what let you to do that pricing model or service model?
Puneet: [18:24] Pricing is one of the most difficult things in legal tech. And the reason is because traditionally if it's some kind of technology style solution, that means someone's charging them an arm and a leg to get it done in an inefficient way.
[18:38] The service we provide from our research, third party vendors charge $2,500 to $4,000 to do. That's something we can do for 50 bucks.
[18:49] How do we charge $50? Why should we leave all that money on the table? And at first, we tried to be a lot more expensive for everybody, but then we realized like volume is where it's at. So we priced it where it's fair and that's been working out for us.
Natalie: [19:11] With that, the evolution in your pricing model. Did you notice an evolution in your features and what people were asking you for, like after you got this in the hands of customers. Did things change?
Puneet: [19:20] Absolutely. We spoke to our clients endlessly asking for feedback. What do you like? What do you hate? And then, we would action those items as fast as we could. They really shaped our products from what it began as to what it is now.
Natalie: [19:36] One of the features that struck my interest on your website was you talked about using your AI‑powered search to identify areas of potential risk.
[19:45] When I was reading that it looked like you were moving, not just to gathering the evidence for litigation, but also helping companies go through and look for hotspots or potential problems in the future. Is that something you guys are branching into?
Puneet: [19:58] Absolutely. This was sparked by customer inquiry. So we had, let's call them Fortune 100 companies reach out to us. That they found us on Google Search. And to say the least, I was very surprised to get their email in my inbox and the conversations led us to figure out that their employees are using new tools more and more even without permission.
[20:21] People are using email less and they have archiving and reporting requirements, and they don't know what to do. They want to just allow the employees to use this, but they need a way to archive and search through it all. And that's something we've built.
[20:37] At first, it was for the individual law firm or individual litigant, but we've been working on something where we can collect and archive chats enterprise‑wide, where our AI search can find exactly what someone in HR or IT might be looking for.
[20:53] For an example, if you do a search for the word attorney and no one use the word attorney in a particular conversation, but the use of word lawyer, the word legal, or mentioned courts, or something like that, all those alternatives would appear.
[21:09] That's the first iteration of our crude AI. Number two would be a full sentiment analysis where you can find fear, or harassment, or what have you.
Peter: [21:19] What you're triggering in me is the idea that this is combining some of those e‑Discovery concepts and mixing them with some of the ideas that Evichat initially was raising.
Puneet: [21:30] Yes, absolutely. So it's now, I mean e‑Discovery, but imagine it live in real time, right?
[21:36] So, with email to dump an entire organization's email inbox that might require like a team of 50 out of Big Four consulting firm, but when it's a team that's chatting live all the time, we can just plug in and archive all of that data and allow them to search through it live. You don't need to hire a third party to help you out with that.
Natalie: [22:00] Right and you can throw flags. So, if somebody is using words that perhaps suggest a problem, then somebody throws a flag, somebody investigates, and we fix the litigation before it even starts, right?
Puneet: [22:11] Exactly.
Peter: [22:11] What are some of the words that would...?
Puneet: [22:13] Peter, you can use your imagination, but it's only words. If a manager is speaking to an employee between the hours of 2:00 and 4:00 every Saturday night, maybe you want to have a talk with that person and these are things that can flag as well.
Peter: [22:29] It's interesting.
Puneet: [22:30] Yeah, insider trading. That's another huge one.
Natalie: [22:32] So you guys are moving away from then. You're not just selling to lawyers anymore. You're looking at, like you said director Fortune 500 companies.
Puneet: [22:38] Right. We're definitely not moving away from the lawyers. That's what got us into it and it's still generating a lot of excitement, but over the last 10 years or so, I think the bank's alone paid about $320 billion in fines. Our people talking online and not be able to produce this communication, because it was in a different type of format. That's a lot of money.
Natalie: [23:01] Yeah.
Peter: [23:03] What's next for Evichat?
Puneet: [23:04] So, our main two core products right now is collecting chat text message evidence. So we want to definitely add more platforms and make it a bit more robust, improve the user experience.
[23:16] Our second big tool is called site archive. And so that allows lawyers to collect and archive any website that's available publicly online, whether it's a news article mentioning their clients, somebody's Facebook profile, or what have you.
[23:33] So, let's say you're being defamed and once you sue them they're going to take the website down. Well, now you can archive it, make sure you have an authenticated copy.
[23:42] That's actually being a very, very popular tool of ours, especially with trademark litigation lawyers in Canada and in the US. Someone stealing or someone that's selling your stuff on Amazon but calling it something else.
Peter: [23:55] Yeah, there's a whole industry around this.
Puneet: [23:56] Absolutely, yeah. Well, now they can archive all those websites and file a complaint all from the comfort of their legal office.
Peter: [24:08] There's a lot of people who are building things and are in the same position you were when Evichat started. And so, can you tell us, maybe give us three lessons learned?
Puneet: [24:20] Sure. One is, never doubt yourself.
Peter: [24:22] Wow, really?
Puneet: [24:23] Yeah. Self‑doubt and your own kind of insecurities, that's number one thing holding entrepreneurs back. People are scared to take a leap, and it's a super scary thing. But you can do it. And if you don't believe in yourself, no one else will. I think that's very, very important. Two is, if you tell someone, "Oh, I have this cool startup idea but I'm not going to tell anyone, you're never going to build it."
Natalie: [24:49] [laughs]
Peter: [24:50] Really?
Puneet: [24:50] Yeah. Tell as many people as you possibly can because most people will tell you, "Yeah, it's pretty good." But you want that one person who says, "No, your idea totally sucks." And that might save you a lifetime of debt or what have you. So, tell as many people as you can, and that's what will initially help you with your business model, your idea, your overall vision.
[25:15] Three, just be yourself and go out and execute. A lot of people, again, they hesitate for whatever reason. And, again, it is very scary and hard to do but you really need to take action. They say, "Oh, execution is everything," that couldn't be more true.
Natalie: [25:33] Who are you keeping on? Who have you seen that's interested you in the newlaw space?
Puneet: [25:37] Well, in the US, there's two companies that are really interested me. One is Lawgical, and another one is Everlaw. And we're kind of in a similar space, but they both recently raised $25 million rounds each.
Natalie: [25:50] Wow.
Puneet: [25:51] And it's cloud‑based e‑discovery, and they're trying to take on the big behemoth relativity. It looks very, very exciting and I'm wishing them both the best and I'm keeping a very close eye on some of the cool things that they do.
[26:03] In Canada, there's a lot of unheralded legal tech startups in Canada. There are some that tackle the big law issues but there's several that focus on small firms and what 99 percent of lawyers need, and I think they deserve more credit. One is NoticeConnect, for example. They completely eliminated online ads for creditors and wills. And they destroyed a huge industry...
Puneet: [26:38] and they did it quietly from 10 Dundas East. I think that's a pretty cool story. They're a company that a lot of these companies look up to. Founders is another great one, they've disrupted the whole incorporation and legal information about incorporation. Both those companies are great friends of ours as well. So, we learn a lot from them.
Peter: [27:00] So, in five years, where's Evichat?
Puneet: [27:04] Good question. Hopefully, we'll be managing and searching through internal chat data of big corporations helping people fight the good fight.
Peter: [27:16] Are you still at Evichat in five years?
Puneet: [27:18] Yeah, 100 percent.
Peter: [27:19] Yeah, right? You're good?
Natalie: [27:21] I am.
Peter: [27:21] I'm good. You're good?
Puneet: [27:22] Yeah, I'm good. Thanks so much for having me, guys.
Peter: [27:25] Thanks so much for joining us. It's been interesting to watch you and watch Evichat. We did an earlier thing where you gave a little soundbite at the end of the episode, which, by the way, I'm just going to put at the end of this episode. We'll go find it and put it again, although it's weird to do it twice. It's so funny and it's my best.
Peter: [27:44] You and your cousin are the absolute best. I can't tell you how many times I've played that personally.
Puneet: [27:49] That's awesome.
Peter: [27:50] Because you guys are bursting with enthusiasm. One partner says one line and the other partner says other, which is like the best romantic...
Peter: [28:00] voicemail message ever.
Puneet: [28:02] That's hilarious.
Peter: [28:02] Let's put that at the end of this episode. So cool to see you guys grow and so much positive energy coming from you and your company, and we very much wish you guys all the best.
Puneet: [28:12] Thanks so much. Fun fact, that was our first piece of public press ever.
Peter: [28:16] Sweet. It's back, baby. It's back. Thanks so much.
Puneet: [28:19] Thanks.
[28:19] [background music]
Puneet: [28:19] Hi, everyone. I am Puneet Tiwari, and I'm a lawyer.
Nilesh Pandey: [28:23] I'm Nilesh Pandey, an engineer from Waterloo.
Puneet: [28:26] And we're the co‑founders of Evichat.
Nilesh: [28:34] A lot of the time that we tell lawyers about our product, they say, "Wow, I could really use this in my most recent case, this actually gets us some really excited that we're solving real problems that lawyers are facing all the time.
Puneet: [28:48] Thanks for listening. We're Evichat, and we're building newlaw.
Natalie: [28:52] For this episode's show notes and transcript, and how to satisfy your law society CPD requirements, please visit our website at buildingnewlaw.ca. We'd love to hear from you and if you have any feedback, feel free to send an email to email@example.com, or come and find us on Twitter @buildingnewlaw. Don't forget to subscribe on iTunes, our website, or wherever else you get your podcasts.
Peter: [29:14] Thanks for listening to the Building NewLaw podcast, brought to you by Counter Tax Lawyers. To learn more about Counter, go to countertax.ca.
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